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Had pierced primers at 48 grs of CFE223 under a 168 SMK in an LR 308. We believe the 2nd Amendment is best defended through grass-roots organization, education, and advocacy centered around individual gun owners. It worked fine. But than again not knowing what you use for a powder measure'r ? I need about 25 rounds per "match" with 1 or 2 matches per week for league shooting. There is some people that might give you info that is not any good! This powder is dyed grey-black and the powder kernels are cut longer to more resemble original, Canadian-made IMR-4198. 0000002505 00000 n
Reloading 223 Rem./5.56mm is mostly the usual routine. The .223 Remington (right) shares identical outside dimensions as the 5.56 NATO (left) but is not fully interchangeable. Using the powder for low pressure cast large caliber bullet rifle loads. Proven metering and necessary elements were added to make it extremely insensitive to hot/cold temperatures. I had a 222 and it was.amazing in that cartridge. It was in the Hornady manual and the power was available so I picked it up. Although if I were to reload for a AR. I probably send 3,000 to 4.000 rounds down range most years with IMR 4198. in the 223, with 40 to 63 grain bullets.. Back then a 55gr bullet was a heavy bullet in the 223 and about all I used Seem's factory barrels came with 1-9 twist's said to best balance that heavy bullet. Started using 4198 originally and found it very accurate with 55 gr (mostly what I load). For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. I ended up giving 7.5 pounds to a friend. Wife said I had enough bullets, I don't understand! I just purchased 8lbs of H4198 and I read that it works great for my .308 has anyone tried this behind a Nosler 168 grain bullet? From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm. Dime sized groups at 150 yds. Reloading data for 29 loads in caliber. Brand: Savage. 4198 is a fast burning powder, and you will get piston "short stroking" in an AR which will cause FTF issues. I worked up a load for a Barnes 55gr HP with 4198 this weekend. Keep up the good work IMR. Maybe you'll have no issues but lot's do with 4198 powders in AR's. "If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself." Excuse my ignorance. Have found it to be pretty accurate in my Rem model 7. . RL15 also meters well, I bought an 8lb jug of 4198 a couple years ago to do some volume loading. Just finished loading some IMR 4198 at 20.0, 20.5, and 21.0 for testing in my 16" AR. IMR 4198 and H4198 are two of the go to powders, for years, in the 222 bench crowd. but with 55 gr. Mag, IMR-4198 was pretty much the go to powder for a couple decades. IMR 4198 - This fast burning rifle powder gives outstanding performance in cartridges like the .222 Remington, .221 Fireball, .45-70, and .450 Marlin. Play with it, you might find that magical combination. My experience shows, generally speaking, the faster-burn-rate choices work better with bullets weighing up to 60 grains. match bullet. 243, although I agree it's a port pressure issue . Shoots outstanding ! My experience shows, generally speaking, the faster-burn-rate choices work better with bullets weighing up to 60 grains. Give a Gift
In 1990, the Hornady XTP (which stands for Extreme Terminal Performance) won the industry's Product. 4198 with 40 grainers, you can get those going in the 3700 fps range or more.. I don't have my data here in front of me but I use IMR-4198 with a 50gr V-Max. I have been looking for alternative powders, but soon everything could be gone. Its best to weed out any irregular cartridges to avoid problems later. They typically weighed between 90.5 grains and 92.5 grains and on average held around 30.6 grains of water, measured level with the case mouth. I have come to the conclusion that if this doesn't shoot accurately in your rifle, nothing will. Tips, techniques, and equipment are applied to these classroom discussions on how to become more proficient and successful at making long-range shots while hunting with AR-platform rifles. Burn rates range from IMR 4198 (fastest) to CFE 223 (slowest). Even if a fella only had, say a 30/30 barrel, being a single-shot, it's very easy to load it to make 50-yard head-shots on squirrels with a little lead and and a pinch of powder. It meters very consistent in my Dillon powder thrower. One sighter shot, then 5 shots for group. Damn, I wish I knew what bullet he loaded as he can't remember the brand. AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own. A few examples include the (1) Browning BLR 81, (2) Thompson/Center G2 Contender, (3) Ruger No. SKU : 941988. The list of match bullets is extensive, typically ranging in weight from 52 to 75 grains (even 80- to 90-grain bullets requiring a faster-twist rate than discussed here). Military Rifles AR-15 (.223) loads. 0000007976 00000 n
2 Reply Thomaswitt46 2 yr. ago Sierra lists it for up to 55grain bullets. If youre not shooting a single-shot rifle, the length of the magazine box may dicatate the maximum COL possible. Development of the .223 Remington began in 1957, and it became commercially available in January 1964, about a month prior to U.S. military adoption of its twin cartridge Cartridge, 5.56mm Ball, M193 for the AR-15/M16 rifle. 0000001288 00000 n
Powder: IMR 4198 36.0 grains Primer: CCI 200 AOL 2.650 I shot some of these this week, and I had three five shot groups all . The accompanying data is intended for .223 Remington chamber dimensions and includes bullet weights ranging from 35 to 75 grains. I bought IMR 4198 powder because it was listed on Hodgdon's website as a Military duplicate load. A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. With-out-doubt. I think you will find much better results with a ball powder, A-2230, H-335, W-748, etc. It is also outstanding in cartridges like the 444 Marlin and 7.62 X 39. and lately .223 Rem. I also ran the numbers on my Powley computer and was surprised when it indicated IMR 3031 and IMR 4064 were the preferred choices for lighter weight bullets. Happy to find it in stock! Its still a port pressure problem. 4198 with a 55 gr. Lighter bullets may be seated to a shorter COL, whereas the heavier (longer) bullets tend to fill up the extended NATO-spec chamber throat/leade. One of my two 30/30 loads is a 118 grain, plain-based RFN over seven grains of Unique, which yields a thousand shots to a pound. Ive seen a lot of his targets that further confirm the fact that accuracy in bolt actions can be improved in this manner. 0000014444 00000 n
I tried 7 other powders. 0000005070 00000 n
Special tools are made just for this purpose. IMR 3031 Smokeless Powder Smokeless Powder IMR Powder Co. IMR 3031 1 Container Approximate net weight 1lb. I had a 222 and it wasamazing in that cartridge. We place limited powder inventory for sale on a regular basis on our website. Burns consistently and clean. We'll see. Dont know about the Canada made or the. Can't imagine the 223 would be much different. Very few AR15's will cycle with H4198 but a few reportedly do. If ammunition is to be used in extremely cold temperatures, a magnum primer is suggested, especially when using spherical powders. Meters well, burns clean. Good burn and accurate charges. Good cycling out of the AR15. cartridge case severely limits how much you can vary bulletseating depth, so I havent done much of it. All I have left for .223 is some IMR 4198 until my backordered 748 ships. Is there any milsurp IMR8208 around anymore? or a cross section of both? I use 4198 to push an assortment of .223 through my 3 bolt action guns. Around 1959, the .222 Special was renamed the .223 Remington to prevent confusion, but it was not introduced commercially until December 1963 in the Remington Model 760 pump-action rifle and was soon chambered in other rifles. vMax shoot great in my Savage 110. Doing some load development for the Savage Axis 223. I never tried 4198 in an AR because my experience with it in a bolt action .223 was severely underwhelming. Since you are already at max, I would back down to around 21.0 grains. If just a pound , I'd give up on it and just get some H-335 and never look back . Remember, I am talking about bolt rifles. 3177 fps from my bolt gun. IMR 4198 $52.99 - $376.99 4.75 39 reviews This fast-burning rifle powder gives outstanding performance in cartridges like the 222 Remington, 221 Fireball, 45-70, and 450 Marlin. As a result, firing 5.56 NATO ammunition in a rifle with a .223 chamber can result in excessively high pressures and is generally not recommended; however, .223 ammunition can be fired in a 5.56 chamber without issues. Sierra lists 21.8 gr maximum of IMR4198, for there 55 gr bullets, fired in a Colt 20" barrel Ar15. Lever Action Pump Action Semi-Auto Single Shot . Dont know about the Canada made or the new lots ADI (AR2215 ) made in Australia. I burn up 10 lbs of old Dupont IMR 4198 in an M16A1 carbine with a 14.5 inch barrel and a Ruger Mini14. I like IMR 4198, have used it in .222 Rem. 0000021151 00000 n
We do not take backorders and our Tech Services team cannot take orders via email or phone. My current favorite for the .223/5.56 is Ramshot Tac, but have used over a dozen powders from Accurate 2015 to H-4895 over the years with better results than 4198. HV6+.cE) Y$Y8XdO,MFH]0`[Gu%/|m`n`Zh>wOO=||n|nq+4Lv+b,;awwks[GcFx8X3X3;EOS,.ca%?BCAx>9pa. 0000006710 00000 n
The load data says a min of 18.8 grains up to a maximum of 20.4. 50 gr. Mag, IMR-4198 was pretty much the go to powder for a couple decades. Savage Arms Inc. bolt-action rifles produced since November 1, 1995, including the Axis, Models 10, 11, 12, 16, etc., have been fitted with 1:12, 1:9 and 1:7 twists, though it seems that of late the company has settled on the 1:9 twist as standard. Thank you again. HVr+S&A(U#`H
`hP{z#^\EL9O$$EAL2e|j p,~E3w?#' I've never liked the idea of using any combination of components that barely works the firearm . Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. 25a - Remington model 48C, 22 cal rifle Remington model 48C, bolt action, 22 Cal rifle with clip 26 - 12 ga Bolt Action Model 583.20 JC Higgins 27 - Winchester Single Shot, Model 37, 20 ga 27a - Winchester model 50 20ga. IMR POWDER 4198 8LB. 5?Z^svZi+4`yj!+o%gCR] 7%[P.]u$r4~%TitoUu}dxQ^_y9:sz^7;[K` o
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While select extruded powders are known for top accuracy, many spherical (Ball) versions likewise produce first-rate performance. It burns pretty cleanly. Bolt Action Rifles; Lever Action Rifles; Pump Action Rifles; Semi Auto Rifles; Single Shot Rifles; Other Rifles; Shotguns. trailer
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All RifleShooter subscribers now have digital access to their magazine content. I have only shot 4198 in bolt guns, but there is no reason the ammunition would not work well in ARs. Stick powders that meter like ball. Another one is IMR 4198 (21.6gr.) sometime since then, Hodgdon has gone back to Canadian-produced IMR-4198. CFE 223. The kernels were shortened to improve metering and necessary elements were added to make it insensitive to hot or cold temperatures. Another step Ive found to be necessary when reloading for 223 Rem./5.56mm autoloaders is verifying the headspace. Item Number: 18607. how old was jan stenerud when he retired. Forum. Choose a powder that best fills the case, about 80 to 90% and choose a powder that gives the highest velocity with the bullet you want. The .223 Remington has been chambered in a variety of rifles and action types. Traditionally, it propels a 55-grain bullet at 3,240 fps a notable increase in velocity and effective range when compared to the .222 Remington. RifleShooter Magazine editor Scott Rupp breaks down all the features of the Mossberg Patriot Predator rifle chambered in 6.5 PRC. Most of my children started hunting deer and antelope with the .223 and have shot dozens of deer. Thats not the case when firing an AR. I do use IMR 4198, but in 45-70 gov't. 0000016068 00000 n
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I've never used any of the H powders (4198,4831, etc) just to keep the number of variables down. While safe in my rifles using my methods of development, please use professional guidance for your own efforts. Good versatile powder, use it in 223/5.56 ands 300 Blackout subsonic rounds. 1 Single-Shot Rifle: Tips to Improve Its Accuracy, Mossberg Patriot Long-Range Hunter Bolt-Action Rifle: Full Review. Thats not to say its just as easy to stuff a 77-grain bullet into the heaviest case youre reloading atop a full charge of BL-C(2) as it is with the lightest piece of brass in the batch. To develop the accompanying handload data, a Savage Model 10 Predator Hunter Max was used; it features a 22-inch barrel, a 1:9 twist rate and was fitted with a Nikon 3-12x M223 scope. A friend gave me a little over 100 rounds of loaded .223. These estimates are for .223 pressures. Like a lot of others have posted, I used 21.5 with a 55gr FMJ. I have a hand throw Hornady powder measure and it doesn't meter well. I am new to reloading the .223 round. Copyright 1996-2023 AR15.COM LLC. To show viewers how to succeed at long range, J. Guthrie gears up for a challenging shot while chasing Colorado pronghorn at long range with DPMS' Panther 6.5 Creedmoor. I've been having excellent results with some very old IMR 4198 and Nosler 40 grain Ballistic tip bullets in my 11.5" SBR. February 24, 2022 armstrong siddeley cars for sale armstrong siddeley cars for sale Like a bolt gun, an AR has hard physical features, but the design and operation are more complex. That always seemed to work for me but I was nver able to get a 223 to shoot with an old Rem 788 in 222 Rm. Examples include Ramshot TAC (left) and Accurate 2015 (right). The H4198 load produced exceptionally light recoil but it still managed to cycle the bolt and strip another cartridge for every successive shot. Sierra lists different maximums between bolt & autos. with a 55gr. It may still be too hot or may not meet your accuracy objective, but its not likely dangerous to your gun or you. Not normal. Going by the book today. I got a 8 pound key of 4198 for my wifes bolt action 223. Sign up to get updates and access to exclusive promotions. 0000006732 00000 n
Thanks for the help guys. This fast burning rifle powder gives outstanding performance in cartridges like the 222 Remington, 221 Fireball, 45-70, and 450 Marlin. IMR 4198 is a GREAT powder for the 223.. bullet weights of 65 grains and under.. if it isn't accurate in your gun ( I'm a bolt action guy).. its not the powder.. its your gun or the shooter. Of the powders used to develop the accompanying data, there is not a single right or wrong choice, as all gave respectable accuracy and velocity. Some report that it takes maximum charges to make their AR's extract and pick up the next round from the magazine. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm Barrel Length : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders. Used to be when you asked about choosing a powder there was one answer. This was in the 80's and as powder reloading manuals have been tuned down over the years, my load is .6 over max (just checked the Hodgdon site). .223 Remington (Hodgdon Data Using IMR Powder) reloading data with 221 loads. Kimber's Hunter Pro Desolve Blak takes the firm's more affordable mountain rifle to new heights. I have on hand a few pounds of IMR 4198 that I normally use in my 6.8, and was looking into loading some 55 grain 223 rounds with it. Extremely accurate in a couple guns I have. . many years ago long before I had any interest in AR-15s, has reams of 223 Rem. For example, most bullet manufacturers offer highly frangible varmint bullets that give near-explosive results on thin-skinned pests such as ground squirrels and prairie dogs. %PDF-1.4
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Ive walked the walk, and now I want to share what Ive learned. Ive tried several of the swaging tools, but for me personally, the process is a hit-or-miss procedure. Of course I never got the 55gr bullet to work well in the 222 Rem either. Subscriber Services. USE THIS DATA AT YOUR OWN RISK. Location and size of the port has a direct effect. I scale my charges most of the time. I think this is an excellent powder and will continue to use it for my 45-70 reloading. The Sierra data seems more on line with what I have seen elsewhere, so I will start with their min. 223 Rem 55g Vmax; Varget & IMR 4198 16,412 views Jan 6, 2018 153 Dislike Share 243 Outdoors 8.13K subscribers Testing some 55g V-Max handloads in the 223 Savage Axis. In spite of stiff competition, the .223 is easily the most widely used centerfire varmint cartridge in the world. First powder I used in the .223 and good for making some accurate loads, but maybe a little fast for the cartridge. I think I got it for 45-70 but never used it. Looking for a 7mm rem mag bolt action or browning blr lever action browning bar.semi auto might be interested in other calibers also. If you choose this route, dont get aggressive and recut the pockets too much. Knowing twist rate of your barrel would be helpful? I would certainly recommend it to others for its consistency. Shoots consistently out of my muzzleloader. soft-point bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1970 f.p.s., but it has improved through the decades with better bullets and increased velocities. It shoots good groups and cycles fine with my AR but after I'm done I'll go back to TAC 2 Reply textbooknarco 2 yr. ago I have loaded 18.5 grs with a 55 gr bullet , still cycled the M16 action. H4198 worked better than the CFE BLK and would be a good second choice in powder for the 125 gr. IMR4198 or H-4198 8208 is also good.. at or near max loads. Most success is in bolt guns it seems. seirras Some of the gas is divertedbefore the bullet exits the barrelto actuate a piston, carrier, or operating rod. This combination has proven to be very good from a number of rifles, not only mine. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. This combination has proven to be very good from a number of rifles, not only mine. The cartridge is available in bullet weights of 36 to 80 grains. My barrel is a 1:8 twist though so I switched to a heavier bullet to tighten the groups. I shot a lot of it in .222 back in the '70s before I graduated to .22-250. It is important to mention that the 5.56 NATO is not fully interchangeable with the .223 Remington. Wilson Combat Paul Howe Tactical 6.5 Creedmoor: Full Review of the Versatility Champ, Sweet Scents of Gun Solvents and Oils: 12 Perfumes for Firearms, 10 Great .22 Mag Bolt-Action Rifles Right Now, Ruger No. 0000001080 00000 n
Probably one of the best powders for use in 556 and 76239, very satisfied with my purchase. IMR 4198 for .223 / 5.56 questions. My AR is a 16" Bushmaster M4 chambered in 5.56. Still under powered when compared to Nato ammo. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Never a problem. Couldn't hurt to try. #1789892 - 01/10/11 11:59 PM Re: 55 v-max and varget in bolt action .223 [Re: SShooterZ] DoubleUp Die Hard Member with a . I don't recall any data using I-4198. IMR-4198 is probably too slow for most uses in the 450b.--Bob. (it's been suggested these are Nosler over-run JSP slugs). 0000001007 00000 n
J. Scott Rupp takes a first look at the Springfield M1A Loaded rifle chambered in the popular 6.5 Creedmoor. 3298 do you have a reloading book? Even if it shoots good I probably won't buy anymore. I don't remember ever trying a different bullet but I might have. Your CFE 223 is more efficient for 69 gr. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL, nor QuickLOAD's author nor its distributor assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information or information derived from it. 4198 works excellent in my son's Savage 10 Varmint .223 bolt rifle. In fact, if all of the propellant gas exits the muzzle (i.e., the primer or cartridge case didnt leak or blow out), youre a long way toward declaring your handload safe and reliable. If I find a bad one, I check the rest and put any that fail to fit the gauge aside. It is a bit too fast for optimum results with heavier bullets. The decapping pin in the sizing die may not be stout enough to knock these out without being damaged, so deprime them before resizing using a special die expressly made for this task. The shooter provides the power to cycle the bolt, extract the empty case, and feed another round. Buy Powder - IMR 4198 - 1lb: GunBroker is the largest seller of Reloading Supplies Ammunition Reloading All: 973169941. . 0000024785 00000 n
Make Offer Toggle menu. The three-blade cutter is permanently and precisely mounted on a steel base to assure proper depth and angle of the resulting chamfer. Pressure tested at 55,000psi as per Hodgdon's Manual 2004. Let me know Thanks! I'm waiting for it to come back into stock. Edit Product. 0000010535 00000 n
Varmint shooters with small-bore cartridges love it. Using Hornady 40g V-Max and IMR4198. When loading ammunition to be used in the field, and fired in a variety of actions and rifle types, I prefer a crimp to keep bullets in place. All I can say is that 4198 is a lot faster and,a lot lighter charge than the powders I use. [ARCHIVED THREAD] - 223 loads with IMR 4198. Mediocre accuracy and velocity combined with lousy metering in the powder measure. 62gr: Code: Cartridge : .223 Rem. The gas port in a piston-operated AR is also fixed but may incorporate a size adjustment feature. IMR 4198 has been my .223 powder since about 1981. And, fortunately, nobody can work the bolt fast enough to extract the case while theres residual pressure in the barrel. With the changes made to military loads and the 5.56 NATO cartridge by 1980, the rifling twist of mil-spec AR rifles was changed to 1:7 to better accommodate ammunition that contained heavier bullets. Trim to length as needed, clean/uniform the primer pockets, reprime, charge with powder, verify powder charges, seat bullets to specific overall length, perform final inspection, box, and label. This powder is one of the best that I have used I have been reloading for about 13 years now and I have relied on this powder for most of my rifle bullets needs. Never used it, don't know much about it. 4198 produces very accurate ammunition in the .223 (and .222) for 55 grain bullets and lighter. Great powder. Big difference between the accuracy needed for 300 yard P-dog shots and across-the room HD shots. The bolt-action design affords the handloader a bit more latitude in powder selection than a gas-operated system. My Savage 223 model 110 . Extreme spread was .473, subtracting .223, and I have a .250 group! Then back to a (published here) max load of 4227 for 300 gr jacketed bullets. It may not display this or other websites correctly. I've had friends that couldn't get a gun to shoot good groups,and ran this load in them,and got great results. It was very clean burning and did not gunk up the gas tube, leading to the original reputation that the rifle was extremely reliable and really didn't need cleaning. 0000003178 00000 n
I use IMR-4198 for my .30BR and 7.62x39 accuracy loads, and will be trying it out using pulled bullets from x39 ammo in x54R reduced recoil loads for my 110lb Granddaughter's scoped M-N 91/30. The chamber throat/leade dimensions are also a major determining factor. data showing how varying the bulletseating depth improved accuracy in his bolt actions. Only trial and error can teach you just how much force is required to cleanly chamfer the pocket lip and not cut away too much of the case material. I started to use IMR 8208 XBR for my AR 15 plinkers. It will remain my light bullet powder for my bolt gun which I expect to meter each round. This means you have the option to read your magazine on most popular phones and tablets. I have done a search here and have read everything I can find on Google, but most of the responses seem to be something like, "4198 will work, but there are better powders out there". I started using IMR 4198 to I worked up a load too 21.5grs with 55gr bullets with a AOL of 2.250. Results for the 150 gr. Google" port pressure ar15" Location and size of the port has a direct effect. Introduced in 1965 with the .444 Marlin cartridge, the Model 444 was the most powerful lever action of its day. His load was 4198, 19.5 grains and a 52 grain hollow point flat base bullet of unknown manufacture. shooting my 38-55 with lead bullets, 255 gr. Current production IMR-4198 should be Canadian-made and can cycle most AR15's when loaded to maximum loads. I used IMR 4198 when I could no longer find VV N120 for 40 grain .223. What the heck, the load isn't hot so I'll try it. Anyway I purchased some Nosler 168 grain bullets for target practice and was wondering. of IMR4198 and 52gr bullets. It cycles perfectly with factory ammo, so I do not feel it is anything with the gun. Scott Rupp gets a chance to talk to Aaron Oelger about a few new products from Hodgdon and why reloading store shelves are empty. IMR4198 is all Ive used in 223 and 222, since about 1982. I recently bought reloading equipment for my son-in-law and grandsons to reload the .45-70 for Ohio deer hunting. A few bolt-action sporting and target rifles have been fitted with 1:14 twist barrels, such as the Remington 40XB, Husqvarna and various Cooper rifles. 2023 Outdoor Sportsman Group. 275 grain bullet with 78 grains of IMR 4198 300 grain bullet with 75 grains of IMR 4198 I believe, I am what is keeping it from its full potential. Savage 10 FCP-K 223 Rem Law Enforcement Bolt Action Rifle. I thought they were different powders. That was last available around 2011. Ain't 1 in 7 but close. Not saying whether or not I tried the IMR in a AR? Old Dupont IMR 4198 can be loaded to 21.5 gr with 55gr bullets. Hope its still the same burn rate? Anybody use something like a 223 bolt action to practice at the range instead of always using their larger caliber hunting rifle? Item : 1360. I found this powder to burn clean an not much residue left in the barrel, I really like it. Barrel Break-In: What It Is. Don't know how things stand today but the 5.56mm round was originally developed with a stick powder very much like IMR4198. respective bolt-action designs in the 223 Remington. Bolt Action Shotguns; Lever Action Shotguns; Over Under Shotguns; Pump Action Shotguns; Semi Auto Shotguns; Side By Side Shotguns; Single Shot Shotguns; Other Shotguns; 53 0 obj
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But I see H4198 and IMR4198 both mentioned here. Despite this, most of the powders used . All these have offered complete penetration on broadside shots. I use a lot of Varget in my WW2 era bolt rifles, have been going to work up a load using it in 223. (only). I have one of the ancient Ohaus Du-o-Measures and while it cuts a kernel here and there, it meters far better than, say 4350.